From owner-constitution@andromeda.68k.org Tue Sep 2 00:00:56 1997 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 02:00:17 -0500 From: owner-constitution-digest@lsmsaaa.org (LSMSAAA Constitution Digest) To: constitution-digest@68k.org Subject: LSMSAAA Constitution Digest V1 #6 Reply-To: constitution@andromeda.68k.org Sender: owner-constitution-digest@lsmsaaa.org Errors-To: owner-constitution-digest@lsmsaaa.org Precedence: bulk LSMSAAA Constitution Digest Tuesday, September 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 006 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:32:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Dennis Voss Subject: Sec. 3 -- Dues Message from Virtual Constitutional Convention: OK, folks, our initial debate on Section 2 seems to have run its course. Charles Lin still intends to submit an alternative membership structure, one that departs more innovatively from the current operating procedure, but I do not wish to wait for that proposal before moving on to Section 3. If for no other reason, we should push on because his alternative will certainly require changes in Section 3 as well. Section 3 governs LSMSAAA dues -- i.e., revenues -- not expenditures. Unlike when I wrote the new Section 2, this time I did introduce a few substantive changes from the LSMSAAA's current operating procedure. This Dues section contains the following substantive points of note: (1) It will define the year for which dues must be paid. (If I remember correctly, the old LSMSAAA constitution does not specify when "annual dues" cover.) I have not decided, though, what dates should define the fiscal year. I'm hoping others can make a suggestion. One option, of course, is the calendar year (which is probably the practice of the current LSMSAAA). But another would coincide with elections, so that new officers would come in at the start of a new budget. (2) I lock dues rates constitutionally, rather than allowing the Executive Council to set dues at will. Seems strange allowing elected officers to determine the poll tax required for someone to vote against them in a coming election. (3) A trial balloon: I propose pulling postal fees apart from dues. Thus, an LSMSAAA member who agrees to receive all communications electronically will pay less, and even Lifetime Members who demand postal communications must help pay for those. Why am I suggesting this? Aside from the obvious -- encouraging people not to waste paper and saving the LSMSAAA postal costs -- I have an overriding constitutional reason. In future sections I intend to require (rather than merely permit) periodic communications from the LSMSAAA Executive Council to the LSMSAAA Membership. But unless the Constitution provides a sound way to ensure that the LSMSAAA has adequate funds for this, we risk writing a constitutional crisis into the document. Allowing a growing pool of people who have the right to receive postal communications yet pay nothing eventually would create a fiscal or constitutional collapse (or, alternately, require increasing dues for future LSMSA classes). A final note on this proposal: I am not wedded to it, and encourage others to find a better solution that accomplishes the same goal, and especially do not intend the $2 amount as the final word since I did not consult with past or present LSMSAAA officers before setting it. (4) I protect the LSMSAAA membership from retroactive rate increases, and especially protect LSMSAAA Lifetime Members. (5) Although I allow the LSMSAAA to collect fees at the door for particular activities (such as a crawfish boil or T-shirt sale), I do not allow them to budget for activities based upon assumed future revenues (i.e., the money to buy the crawfish or T-shirts must already be present in the LSMSAAA treasury). All of these proposals are opened for debate now. I would ask, though, that we hold off debating either the communications requirements (which do not appear in this section) or the line about "at the discretion of the LSMSAAA President" (since this depends upon what we work out in Section 4 on the Executive Council). steve 3. DUES Members of the LSMSAAA who wish to activate their status for a given fiscal year must submit dues for that year to the LSMSAAA Treasurer, as specified in the annual report (see ...). The fiscal year runs from [date] to [date]. Lifetime Members no longer need to pay dues to retain their active status, but may have to pay postal fees (as discussed in Article 3 Section 1 below). (a) The rate for "regular dues" is $8 annually, paid to the LSMSAAA Treasurer for a given fiscal year. (b) The rate for "lifetime dues" is $13 annually, paid to the LSMSA Treasurer for a given fiscal year. 3.1 Postal Fees Any member of the LSMSAAA, regardless of status, may opt to receive communications from the association through postal rather than electronic media. Should a member of the LSMSAAA opt for postal communications, an additional fee of $2 annually is required to defray costs. This $2 annual charge may be paid to the LSMSAAA Treasurer along with any other dues, or may be paid to the LSMSAAA Recording Secretary separately. 3.2 Timing of Changes in Membership Status Members may pay dues or postal fees for a given fiscal year at any time. (a) If dues or postal fees are paid prior to the beginning of a fiscal year, all rights and privileges of membership associated with those dues begin (or continue, for members who are already active) at the start of the fiscal year. (b) If dues or postal fees are paid after a fiscal year has already begun, relevant rights of membership begin upon receipt of payment by the LSMSAAA Treasurer; no privileges are retroactive. (c) Once a member of the LSMSAAA has paid lifetime dues sufficient to cover 10 fiscal years, regardless of timing, that person becomes a Lifetime Member. No act of the Executive Committee may revoke someone's Lifetime Membership. 3.3 Retroactive Rate Increases Changes in the dues requirements (through Section 9, governing constitutional amendments) may not be retroactive; anyone who has paid dues for a given fiscal year before the new rate structure takes effect will still qualify as having paid dues for that year. No change in the dues requirements may revoke Lifetime Membership once someone has qualified. 3.4 Other Fees The LSMSAAA may charge user fees or admissions for activities, services or products organized by the LSMSAAA or subsidized out of member dues, at discretion of the LSMSAAA President. However, no additional dues or fees may be charged for LSMSAAA members to exercise any rights or privileges granted in this Constitutionm (such as voting in elections, attending a meeting of the General Assembly, or receiving the required communications). Any fees collected under the terms of this subsection must be turned over to the LSMSAAA Treasurer without delay, and may not be used to defray any costs associated with an LSMSAAA activity unless normal appropriations procedures are followed, as outlined in Article 4 sections 1b and 3d. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- D. Stephen Voss (dsvoss@wjh.harvard.edu) Eat your beans, then some mutton, Department of Government, GSAS don't pee ... and go on looking Harvard University after you obsession! Oh! my hypothesis! M-38 Littauer Bldg. Oh! my fame! I shall be immortal! Immortal! Cambridge, MA 02138 Doktor (from Wozzeck) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:01:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andre' DeHon" Subject: [amd@CS.Berkeley.EDU: Re: Sec. 3 -- Dues] I believe this hasn't gone out to you, yet. We're having problems with nameservice for lsmsaaa.org at the moment. ...anyway, if you haven't already gotten a copy, you'll probably end up that that copy later whenever the nameservice problem gets straightened out. (if this goes through in a timely fashion, the trick I'm using is bypassing the proper lsmsaaa.org abstraction and sending it straight to 68k.org (same machine right now...)) Andre' - ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:57:07 -0700 (PDT) To: constitution@lsmsaaa.org In-reply-to: (message from Dennis Voss on Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:32:56 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Sec. 3 -- Dues From: "Andre' DeHon" Reply-To: "Andre' DeHon" Organization: UC Berkeley BRASS X-face: zXx,|&]HuS;w?NU71cDc=Q}P`'1 JvDDtN[*09(DjFxt<&rg',Nz"|5#Bv<,H8?e"Y]S>8V=F4&wP6NO/! |H~lYV'++i9#G`?qx$0G^i|+M|WNt[yF5W#*>%X[NW0" > (1) It will define the year for which dues must be paid. (If I > remember correctly, the old LSMSAAA constitution does not specify > when "annual dues" cover.) I have not decided, though, what > dates should define the fiscal year. I'm hoping others can make > a suggestion. One option, of course, is the calendar year (which > is probably the practice of the current LSMSAAA). But another > would coincide with elections, so that new officers would come in > at the start of a new budget. If the organization continues to be tied to LSMSA, it might be expedient to tie it's fiscal year to LSMSAs (which probably means, in turn, the states?). Alternately, if the graduation-weekend business meeting continues to be the only, annual, association-wide meeting, it might be nice to have the books close a few months before that so that a timely and meaningful report can be made at that time. > (2) I lock dues rates constitutionally, rather than allowing the > Executive Council to set dues at will. Seems strange allowing > elected officers to determine the poll tax required for someone > to vote against them in a coming election. I agree with the sentiment that there should be some checks and balances to control dues (and notification, etc.), but locking a single figure in the constitutio also seems short-sighted. ...If for no other reason than that, until we conquer inflation, the dues will effectively decrease each year... This will force semi-regular "amendments" to keep the organization running. Maybe there's no choice but to vote regularly to accept dues increases, but even so, I'm not sure that wants to be the same level as a constitutional amendment. > (3) A trial balloon: I propose pulling postal fees apart from > dues. Thus, an LSMSAAA member who agrees to receive all > communications electronically will pay less, and even Lifetime > Members who demand postal communications must help pay for those. > Why am I suggesting this? Aside from the obvious -- encouraging > people not to waste paper and saving the LSMSAAA postal costs -- > I have an overriding constitutional reason. In future sections I > intend to require (rather than merely permit) periodic > communications from the LSMSAAA Executive Council to the LSMSAAA > Membership. But unless the Constitution provides a sound way to > ensure that the LSMSAAA has adequate funds for this, we risk > writing a constitutional crisis into the document. Allowing a > growing pool of people who have the right to receive postal > communications yet pay nothing eventually would create a fiscal > or constitutional collapse (or, alternately, require increasing > dues for future LSMSA classes). A final note on this proposal: I > am not wedded to it, and encourage others to find a better > solution that accomplishes the same goal, and especially do not > intend the $2 amount as the final word since I did not consult > with past or present LSMSAAA officers before setting it. Hmm, let me make an assumption I've been making explicit. I always assumed that the money (part of the money) paid above the baseline dues rate for a supporting/lifetime member served to "endow" postage. I believe the original amounts were $7 and $15. After 10 years as a supporting member, you've put in an extra $80. Assuming this is put into savings at a mere 5% interest, this yields $4/year == twice the $2/year postage proposal. So, I consider it reasonable to set the supporting member / lifetime fees such that this gets covered. What else did people have in mind to do with the extra money provided by supporting/lifetime members? Perhaps, if we're going to set these values rationally, we should work back from what we're using the revenues to cover. Personally, my biggest concern is with the overhead transaction cost (my time) of having to pay a regular fee v/s being able to just get it over with all at once. ...oh, and if I opt. for non-postal as a lifetime member, can my communcations/postal-endowment yield money to pay for server support? (nameserver fees, disk upgrades, backups....) > (4) I protect the LSMSAAA membership from retroactive rate > increases, and especially protect LSMSAAA Lifetime Members. good, though you're wording probably needs to be tightened > 3. DUES > Members of the LSMSAAA who wish to activate their status for a > given fiscal year must submit dues for that year to the LSMSAAA > Treasurer, as specified in the annual report (see ...). The > fiscal year runs from [date] to [date]. Lifetime Members no > longer need to pay dues to retain their active status, but may > have to pay postal fees (as discussed in Article 3 Section 1 > below). [so I advocate changing the due structure to lose the ", but may..." clause. ] > (a) The rate for "regular dues" is $8 annually, paid to the > LSMSAAA Treasurer for a given fiscal year. > (b) The rate for "lifetime dues" is $13 annually, paid to > the LSMSA Treasurer for a given fiscal year. Pro-rated dues? I don't see that much need to allow it, but we might want to state one way or the other (now that we are going to define the fiscal year percisely, people will want to know what happens if they want to join half way through the year). > 3.1 Postal Fees > Any member of the LSMSAAA, regardless of status, may opt to > receive communications from the association through postal rather > than electronic media. Should a member of the LSMSAAA opt for > postal communications, an additional fee of $2 annually is > required to defray costs. This $2 annual charge may be paid to > the LSMSAAA Treasurer along with any other dues, or may be paid > to the LSMSAAA Recording Secretary separately. I guess this is a valid point --> and a good way to encourage people to move to modern communications. I'll ping Rachael and Micah. > 3.2 Timing of Changes in Membership Status > Members may pay dues or postal fees for a given fiscal year at > any time. > (a) If dues or postal fees are paid prior to the beginning > of a fiscal year, all rights and privileges of membership > associated with those dues begin (or continue, for members who > are already active) at the start of the fiscal year. > (b) If dues or postal fees are paid after a fiscal year has > already begun, relevant rights of membership begin upon receipt > of payment by the LSMSAAA Treasurer; no privileges are > retroactive. > (c) Once a member of the LSMSAAA has paid lifetime dues > sufficient to cover 10 fiscal years, regardless of timing, that > person becomes a Lifetime Member. + "a fiscal year's dues" is defined as the dues in effect in the year in which the dues are paid *not* the year *for* which the dues are paid. i.e. dues paid in year X for year Y are billed at the rate of dues in effect for year X (assuming X No act of the Executive > Committee may revoke someone's Lifetime Membership. > > 3.3 Retroactive Rate Increases > Changes in the dues requirements (through Section 9, governing > constitutional amendments) may not be retroactive; anyone who has > paid dues for a given fiscal year before the new rate structure > takes effect will still qualify as having paid dues for that > year. No change in the dues requirements may revoke Lifetime > Membership once someone has qualified. maybe, this is trying to say the same thing as the point I was trying to make...but I can't quite tell. Andre' - ------- End of forwarded message ------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 15:34:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andre' DeHon" Subject: [voss1@fas.harvard.edu: please forward] - ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:23:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Dennis Voss Reply-To: Dennis Voss To: "Andre' DeHon" Subject: please forward In-Reply-To: <199709010401.VAA20060@growl.CS.Berkeley.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, Andre' DeHon wrote: > If the organization continues to be tied to LSMSA, it might be > expedient to tie it's fiscal year to LSMSAs (which probably means, in turn, > the states?). I'm not sure what advantage this would have. Isn't the ebb and flow of LSMSA's fiscal year fairly transparent to the LSMSAAA even now? > This will force semi-regular "amendments" to keep the organization > running. Yes, precisely what I intended. Think of the periodic cost-of-living increase as a vote of confidence for the organization (rather than for any given officer, which is what elections are for). I am proposing that we require a supermajority to pass dues increases, which of course is a conservative budgeting principle. Another place you could require a vote to raise dues is the "General Assembly" (my name for the periodic membership meetings). Since these have consistent attendance problems, though, I didn't want to give them many responsibilities other than impeachment and overriding vetoes. Or you could write a specific provision for deciding dues, rather than piggybacking on either the amendment process or the Gen. Assembly. > ...oh, and if I opt. for non-postal as a lifetime member, can my > communcations/postal-endowment yield money to pay for server support? > (nameserver fees, disk upgrades, backups....) Although electronic donations are a good thing, trying to design a system for it in the Constitution almost certainly would be a mistake. Better just to reduce your dues. > people will want to know what happens if they want to join half > way through the year). The section on timing does this. Nothing changes when you join half-way through; you just get halfway benefits for your money. Anything else is too complicated. Was this not clear after you read the timing section, and if not then what can we change to make it clear? > If supporting member dues are $13 in 1998, and a member elects to > pay all 10 years in 1998, he pays $130. Specifically, if the dues are > subsequently raised to $15 in 2001, he is not responsible for the > additional $14 which would have been paid had he paid yearly and had dues > not increased any further. Similarly, should a member pay for 5 years in > 1998, he pays $65, which covers him through 2003 irregardless of the $2 > increase in 2001. As you surmised, the provision against Retroactive Dues Increases was intended to accomplish exactly this. Help me figure out what in the wording of this provision left you uncertain whether we meant the same thing. > I always assumed that the money (part of the money) paid above the baseline > dues rate for a supporting/lifetime member served to "endow" postage. > I believe the original amounts were $7 and $15. After 10 years as a > supporting member, you've put in an extra $80. Assuming this is put into > savings at a mere 5% interest, this yields $4/year == twice the $2/year > postage proposal. My arguments against this paragraph: (1) The difference is between $15 and $10 now. (2) I don't think the LSMSAAA invests the money. (3) Since we don't stop them from spending your dues, we can't assume a given pool of officers will have it available 10 years later. So your advance payment doesn't prevent a constitutional crisis. (4) I estimate that all the money is gone 7-8 years after reaching Lifetime Membership, so even if the Executive Committee followed careful budgeting practices the "entitled" group could grow beyond the ability of reasonable dues to cover. [I put the logic at the bottom, so you could adjust for any fallacious assumptions I might have made.] (5) Membership in the LSMSAAA should convey many more benefits than just a sporadic mailing. Of course, it doesn't even convey *that* right now -- since everyone receives the Praecellemus -- but it could in the future. Postage isn't a large fraction of what you pay in Lifetime Dues. > Personally, my biggest concern is with the overhead transaction > cost (my time) of having to pay a regular fee v/s being able to just get it > over with all at once. We have to trade off the cost of writing a check once every few years with the much larger cost of assuming that the LSMSAAA Executive Council will husband its financial resources intelligently. Since we basically can't assume any one set of officers will be responsible, we either need to write a Constitution that always presumes minimal financial resources, or we need to write one that assures presence of additional resources for each given officer pool. So I may not have persuaded you, but at least you have an extended defense of breaking the postal fees out. steve - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's my figuring on what happens to dues over time, if anyone wants to double-check me. I assume that investment could bring 5% interest, compounded annually, on top of inflation. I also assume that the LSMSAAA spends exactly the amount of regular dues per member each year (so, at current rates, they spend $10 per member). Since inflation is factored out of both costs and revenues, this $10 figure can be used for every year. This table shows each year's contribution, minus $10 each year for costs, plus the previous year's sum * 1.05. Year Supporting Payments Lump Sum 1 5.00 140.00 2 10.25 137.00 3 15.76 133.85 4 21.55 130.54 5 27.63 127.07 6 34.01 123.42 7 40.71 119.59 8 47.75 115.57 9 55.13 111.35 10 62.89 106.92 11 56.03 102.27 12 48.84 97.38 13 41.28 92.25 14 33.34 86.86 15 25.01 81.20 16 16.26 75.26 17 7.07 69.03 18 -2.57 62.48 19 55.60 20 48.38 21 40.80 22 32.84 23 24.48 24 15.71 25 6.49 26 -3.18 So the extra $5 one pays each year is gone within 7-8 years of achieving Lifetime Membership. If the fee is paid in an immediate lump sum, it sticks around for 15-16 years after the regular period covered. steve - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- D. Stephen Voss (dsvoss@wjh.harvard.edu) Eat your beans, then some mutton, Department of Government, GSAS don't pee ... and go on looking Harvard University after you obsession! Oh! my hypothesis! M-38 Littauer Bldg. Oh! my fame! I shall be immortal! Immortal! Cambridge, MA 02138 Doktor (from Wozzeck) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------- End of forwarded message ------- ------------------------------ End of LSMSAAA Constitution Digest V1 #6 ****************************************